"Guaranteed fun for all children" was the promise of this magic and puppet show in the main piazza of the beach town in Tuscany where we have a summer apartment. Too bad it begins at 9:30 p.m.!My latest confusion has to do with the opening hours and times for things that are meant to be for kids. Italian kids apparently follow no routine and have no official bedtime. This makes attempting to raise a child who does follow a routine and has a bedtime almost impossible. I should say that my son HAD a routine and HAD a bedtime, and when we followed the routine and the bedtime, life was much easier for us as a family and my son was much more well rested. He's not one of those mellow fall-asleep-on-the-go kids (please don't try to give me pointers on how I can make him fall asleep in a stroller. Won't.Work.With.My.Kid. If your kid slept in loud restaurants, in the cinema or wherever else, it has little to do with your parenting skills - you got lucky!). If he doesn't sleep at home in his bed, there's hell to pay. Thus I like to keep him on even a loose schedule.
There's a huge carnival near our apartment at the beach with a "Festa dei Bambini from age 0 to 14" every night. Oddly it's closed ALL day every day and opens at 8:30 p.m.But Italy is not working with us. For one thing, my son is entering that stage where he's got little "amici" and so we now have social activities to take into consideration. Dinner is usually around 9 p.m. even when children are involved and that makes a 9 p.m. bedtime impossible to stick to. We also spend a lot of time with extended family and nobody else has a bedtime for their children, so it means that if I try to keep my son on his routine, we are the "odd ones out." And I get a lot of flak.
Anyway, this brings me to a few things that left me perplexed this past weekend while we were at the beach. My son will be spending almost a week there with his nonni while we are in Milan finishing up work before leaving for the U.S. on Aug. 15. The good thing about where we go to the beach in Tuscany is that there are quite a few activities for children. The bad thing is that they all start right around the time I usually put him to bed! I have a feeling my in-laws (who don't tend to follow my routines) will have one cranky toddler on their hands, and we will pay dearly for it as well when we come to collect him. I'm trying not to stress out about it...
Here's another thing. In talking with my American friends, they put their kids to bed around 7 p.m. (maybe it's just Italian city living but I don't know anyone who is home from work at that hour...). That allows them to have some "adult time" at night after the kids are in bed. In Italy it seems the kids are always up and running wild. Don't Italian parents need a little time at night to eat dinner with their spouses, read a book, watch a movie or check their email? As much as Italy is supposedly so "family-oriented" I find the long work day and late dinner time does not make for quality family time. At 10 p.m. I'm usually exhausted and just beginning to clean up from dinner when all I'd like to do is have a few minutes to talk to my husband or relax with a book. Often my son is still up at that hour and in addition to trying to load the dishwasher, I have to try to get him to climb down off of it, bathed and into his pajamas. Does anyone else have these same problems or am I doing something wrong? Sorry for the long, rambling (and probably boring) domestic-themed confessional post, but I feel like I'm failing somewhere.
20 comments:
i think it's how it goes now, parents don't rule over their children and they grow up wild!
i'm 33 and i remember when i was a kid i had dinner at 8 while watching cartoons and bed at 9, 9.30 at max. dont remember how it was as a toddler, i suppose it was even earlier. and in summer i HAD to sleep in the afternoon - that maybe was useful to stay up a little later to keep up the social night life, because maybe it seemed a pity to waste warm summer evenings!
anyway, maybe it would be better to try to follow a schedule adapting it to the italian one - it's matter of accepting that in mediterranean countries there are different rhythms for life and such rhythms have been build in centuries.
I am definitely adapting, and I think if I had a different kind of kid, I wouldn't even think twice about it. In the winter when there weren't so many activities going on, my son seemed to thrive on a more Anglo schedule - eating and going to bed earlier. Regardless of when he goes to bed, he ALWAYS wakes up early. If he were one of those kids who went to bed late and slept late (not just for us but for him), I wouldn't care that much. It's just that I've noticed he doesn't work well with this schedule and as a result, we are more tired/cranky/stressed as an entire family.
Perhaps for me the hard part is that when I go out for a late dinner (or out to do something at night), I like to do it without my child. I'd rather go out once every six months alone with my husband or friends than go out frequently with my kid. Going out to eat with a squirming toddler who won't sit still is not a "pleasure" for me. I don't relax. I don't enjoy my meal. I don't get to talk to my husband or anyone else. I'd rather he be at home with a babysitter asleep in his bed. Or that we not go out at all.
But I'm trying to adapt and mellow out. I just find this schedule does not work for our particular family.
It is very different from what I am used to. Our boy is 8 months old now and people have a hard time understanding why we constantly turn down invitations to dinners out or at friends homes when we don't have a baby sitter. They ask why we don't just bring him with us? And we occassionaly bring him to friends homes where I know he will have a quiet place to sleep, but we can't do the restaurant thing- it is just to stressful for him and me.
I saw the same little puppet show thing here in Massarossa a few days ago, we were passing by on our way to dinner (with Ludovico at home with a babysitter) and I thought how it might be fun for Ludovico, but then I realized the time! There's also a little festival next week, but like you said it doesn't start until late, there's just no way.
We also have friends who invite us to the beach and I went one day in the afternoon for a few hours. My friend said "why don't you come in the morning and we can stay the whole day together?" But I don't see how that works with his nap schedule. He won't sleep on the beach and his naps are crucial to keeping him a happy baby and me a sane mom. He has a nap in the morning and a nap in the afternoon and goes to bed around 8:30. Without his naps he would be miserable.
You are further along them me, but I have had the same worries as you- how will he have a nice social schedule when his sleep schedule conflicts so greatly with all the families around us?
You have my sympathy. My dd also needs to follow a routine or else she becomes very irritable, and she won't just fall asleep in a stroller or wherever. No one we know here seems to get it, and I've given up trying to explain it to them because I'm sure they didn't believe me anyway.
I try to be as flexible as possible when we get together with in-laws or friends, but it's hard. I have a rule that she absolutely must not go to bed later than 11PM, and that mustn't happen more than a few times a month. Dh isn't entirely satisfied with that and wants to compare us to his sibling's families. Of course he's not the one who is responsible for getting dd to sleep when she's cranky and overtired. I've also pointed out to him that there is actually a certain amount of inflexibility in doing it the Italian way. There really is, if you think about it- things are always unplanned, always too late, and it always has to be that way because that's how it is.
I've been wondering about couple's time as well, and I think, if it ever does happen in Italian families, it's because the grandparents take the kids sometimes. I can't imagine how else it could happen if kids are going to sleep at midnight and later. And I wonder how anyone functions, going to sleep so late, without even a moment of peace from the kids, then waking up and starting it all over the next day!
Sorry for the long comment, I've just been thinking about this a lot lately too, because it's summer and it comes up more often. (I've also been sitting a blog post about how Italy sucks for kids. It's a bit polemic and I'll need to revise when I'm less annoyed about all this stuff.)
i see, your child, he's not a 'serotine' one [not sure it's the right word in english..] i can believe it's a mess then with the italian summer way of living o.O
i agree with you with the going out thing - i noticed italian moms are too much anxious for their children they won't leave them with a babysitter - at max with grandparents! there could be so much to think about the way we conceive family and how it is evolved to nowadays, with modern way of life... mostly i think things don't work so well, as much as i can see kids and teenagers are mostly wild, spoiled and unpolite.
a dear friend, who works as a teacher at scuola elementare, always complains about the way parents confide in HIM of being the one to make their children to follow the rules, while they are not able to. and being him one of the most kind and gentle person i know,and that made him to stress so much since he had to become harsh and kind of inflexible to compensate the mild attitude of the parents o.O
so please don't give up completely your anglo way ;) i suspect that it will be useful for your child later in life :)
Courtney and KC,
I think having the support of your partner on the routine thing is KEY. Courtney sounds like you do and KC sounds like (like me) you don't. My husband likes that my son goes to bed late because otherwise he would never see him after work. I get that, but I still find it frustrating. And when we go out to dinner or somewhere with friends or family, my husband doesn't see what the big deal is if our son goes to bed late. This is why I've decided to try to "mellow out." I had my son on a routine and that was fine, but the only two people truly happy about it were a) my son and b) me. So I've "given up" for now and if we are out late and my son starts to have a meltdown, he gets turned over to his father...or my mother-in-law. I try not to give them an "I told you so" look and just walk away..
Courtney,
Same issue on the beach. I take my son home for lunch and he gets a big three-hour siesta. That's the ONLY WAY we can make it through the late nights. It's not ideal as it means we sit in the house (or nap if we feel like it) the entire sunny afternoon. I preferred when he took a shorter nap and went to bed at a "decent" hour, but what are you going to do? Maybe one of these days if our kids schedules (or non-schedules as it were) mesh, we could meet up. :) I'll be there the week of Aug. 10.
MyMinimalLook,
My son is what we call an "early bird" - a mattiniero. Like his mamma! I think he'll benefit from being a product of both cultures. He eats like an Italian!
Michelle, It would be great to meet up, we'll be here.
Yes, having the support of the partner is key. The only times his father and I have disagreed are the times he wants to go over to the grandparent's villa (several times a week) for dinner. It is here on the same property and I was insistent that Ludovico be in bed, but Lorenzo felt we could bring him over in his carriage. I relented on that one as I could see I was being too rigid- the grandparents eat at 8:30 on the dot and we are always back at our home (50 meters away) by 9:30 at the latest. Often Ludovico does fall asleep while we are eating. We also set up long range walkie talkies that are voice activated. If he falls asleep before we go over then we just left him here, but that makes me feel nervous so I actually have come to prefer taking him with us.
I also don't understand how moms can deal with absolutely no free time in the evening. I don't have the energy or desire to stay up late, but my partner and I do like to enjoy a glass of wine and a few moments to chat quietly before going to bed. He too arrives home from work around 8:00 so he only has a short while to spend with Ludovico, but he is a good, attentive father on the weekends and in the mornings before he goes to work. After being with my wonderful, but exhausting child all day I really look forward to a few moments of alone/adult time.
I had a very tough time after my son's birth, the time I got to spend in the evening with a glass of wine was what kept me going some days.
My 17 month old daughter goes to sleep at 9-9:30pm which doesn't seem late to me, but many people here (NJ) seem to put their kids to bed at 8 pm, and you mention some put their kids to bed at 7pm!! D would have a major fit if I even attempted to do that.
But I have a question for you, do babies in Italy nap? I would think that if I tried to keep my daughter up to midnight she would fall over asleep wherever she was.
Not a mom but just wanted to say, you're not failing!
Child friendly means something different here. You're doing nothing wrong. Not having a set bed time would push me to the edge.
I was shocked the first time I went out with some friends of mine. I assume their baby would be at home with a sitter but no, little man was at our very late dinner.
I don't know any parents in the States who put their kids to bed at 7:00 because my friends don't get home from work that early. But child up at 10:00 p.m.? No.
I'm not sure how you can bridge this cultural gap. I'm an adult and I still can't get with the late dinner times which my Italian friends tease me about all the time. Good luck.
I'm with you on this one. Now that it's "passeggiata" season, I see so many kids up very late. My son is up at around 6:30 am, regardless of when he goes to sleep, but he's usually ready for bed around 9:30. And no, he won't sleep anywhere either. If we're out and about when he's ready to sleep, the only place he'll do it is on my shoulder. People tell me to put him in the stroller or act as if I've spoiled him (maybe I have), but he just will not sleep in the stroller.
Hm... I just wanted to chime in with a little pet hate of my own here: easy-going parents with not-so-easy-going kids. A couple I know insist on bringing their toddler daughter to everything, and staying till all hours. Which means that, inevitably, around 9-10pm they've got to leave the table to put their super-cranky little girl to sleep on a sofa somewhere, and then they insist we turn off the music and speak in whispers ... and wait for them to finish singing the ninna nanna while our meal gets cold. Argh!
I'm all for being child-friendly and welcoming, but in these cases I think the really child-friendly thing to do is to take kids home and put them in their own beds!
With you all down the line. Our 4 yr old has a 9pm bedtime, and the baby goes at 8pm - those times are absolutely non-negotiable, and both kids know it. Most of the mums I meet at school here do the same, it's only when we visit the inlaws down south that we find different, and they actually praise our routine. My FIL said parents there have to beg their kids to go to sleep - we just point to the bathroom and off we go.
I think you have to stick to your guns, just for sanity's sake, not to mention your marriage ;)
PS, I've closed my blog (made it private) to pacate the DH, who is convinced maniacs all over the world regularly log on to see the photos of the baby...(??!) - since I follow your blog, I've sent you an email invite so you can see mine (fair's fair)!
Ciao!
When I was living in Italy I thought it was so wonderful that young children were out and about with their parents at night instead of at home with a sitter. Now that I am a mother, I realize those kids would have been better off at home!
My Italian husband truly believes that he spent most of his childhood in a state of fatigue and he attributes his dismal performance in school to his perpetual lack of sleep. (He didn't get his act together until college.)
We have lived in the States for a while now and our young children have a respectable 8:30 bedtime.
The kids in my neighborhood are sometimes up until close to midnight. Now I understand that it's hot but come on. My Italian told me that he normally went to bed at around 9 or 10pm on a school night as a child. Yikes! I am sure we will have the same struggles when we have kids.
I think that you just keep doing what you are doing. You are his mother and just like his name you don't have to change for anyone. You know what is best for your baby and for your family.
My sister is a slave to her baby routines (nap times, et cetera) and makes the rest of us follow naptime as it was a decree from the Pope. I always remind her how in Palermo, I would see kids out at locali at 4 am-- but then again, it is hot there in the summer and most stay in doors all day.
I started having my husband put our son to bed and then he wakes up with him on Saturdays so that I can sleep in.. then I do Sundays, and every weekday. This has also helped DH with understanding WHY there needs to be a bedtime.
Also the lady who runs the daycare that our son goes to talks about the importance of 'rules'. She is great! She is so unlike most italian parents I know.. her kids went to bed at 8:30pm.
There are always days that we might get home late, we go out with friends or something, but they don't happen that often and when they do, we get home NO later than 11.
Some of our friends had commented one time about how unfair it was that our 2 year old goes to bed at 8-8:30. Then they saw how much time we got to sit together, talk, eat, whatever and they started doing the same thing.
I feel your pain and have seen those same over-tired cranky children up at all hours with their parents. But I don't have to deal with it myself as my husband isn't Italian and he understands the need for routine possibily even more than i do as he's with the baby all afternoon on weekdays while I'm at work.
Actually my Dutch inlaws think we put A to bed really late. Her bedtime is 8.30-9 and apparently Dutch kids all go to bed at 7.30 or 8 at the latest. Oh well different strokes for different folks.
Before I had a kid I never would have believed how important all this sleep stuff would become!
Not a mom either but I used to live in Italy and I remember how much it bothered me, not even as a mom, just as an American I guess, seeing these mothers and families with their kids out so late at night...like at 1 or 2 AM on the lungomare?? Really? It just doesn't seem normal to me at all and I don't understand how they function...It just seems like the adults care more about their social life than the kids sleeping habits...And discussing it with my then-fidanzato, he would say 'for sure our kids will be like that'...good thing we are no longer together I guess!
I mean everyone is different, ok, but I see my sister with her kids and she has them on some kind of schedule at least, so that they can function and go to bed and wake up at decent hours, hours that babies/kids should be in bed!
My friend's kids in the UK go to bed at 7pm. They're 1 and 3. They don't nap in the afternoon if that's anything to do with it. 10 - 11 pm sounds so late for little ones! They're going to bed later than me :)
Delina.
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